I've never seen the cafe right in the pews, but St Martin-in-the-Fields in London has a wonderful (and reasonably priced) cafe in the crypt beneath the church. They also have a gift shop, and a relaxing spot to do brass rubbings. The profits are used in their mission to care for the homeless.

Salisbury Cathedral in Salisbury also had a beautiful cafe attached to the side of the cathedral, as well as a large and well-stocked gift shop.

I'm sure there are countless others. These churches are expensive to maintain, and I don't begrudge them the chance to make some money off tourists. I've had delicious soup and treats at St. Martin's!

Perhaps if I were opposed to a particular religious organization's beliefs, I might not purchase anything there, but I don't have a problem with this.

Posted By Mary on November 20, 2008, 3:53 PM

It's ridiculous. What about taxes?

Posted By Lynn on November 20, 2008, 4:31 PM

I think that this practice is acceptable if done tastefully. Some things to consider are placement of the kiosk and how aggressive its marketing is. Do its features detract from the style and atmosphere of the church? If so, then the shop should be reconsidered.

Otherwise, I see nothing wrong with the church getting revenue in this way. (Modern churches in the United States are known to have bookshops and coffee stops.) The churches in Europe are presumably doing this to remain open to the public and to continue to share the beauty of the building with others. Oftentimes, tourists brazenly go in and out of these sites without paying a restoration fee. Their presence contributes to the erosion of the site but not its maintenance.

Think about it this way- We would consider it irresponsible if they simply let the buildings deteriorate. In tough economic times, where else do you expect them to get the money?

Posted By Stephanie on November 20, 2008, 5:00 PM

Lynn,

Europeans already have a very high tax rate and you suggest they pay more and for religion that might not even be theirs?

And I doubt that tourists are going to be all too happy about paying taxes for churches that they might not ever set foot in.

Maybe it's better to just charge for admission.

I have no problems with a gift shop or cafe in the church, because if you really objected to that whole idea, you don't have to go there.

Posted By shami on November 20, 2008, 5:57 PM

That is a powerful organ, isn't it, Sean? Were you lucky enough to catch a concert?

As for the heart of the post, this is so incredibly common, I don't understand what is even at issue?!

I am forever and ever buying postcards and other things from churches I've visited directly, if possible. An excellent church gift shop can be a great place for inexpensive and unique souvenirs. A poor one is no worse than any tacky souvenir stand you'd find on the same street.

Are churches so different from museums, whose shops and cafes are usually a highlight of the experience?

Posted By poetloverrebelspy on November 20, 2008, 7:49 PM

While I am not sure that having a cafe inside the church is a great idea, I know that supporting large, old buildings is very expensive. Even in countries where the state provides some of the funding, the maintenance and restoration of such buildings is an expense few congregations can afford (even large ones). So additional sources of revenue are generally needed.

Some churches do a poor job of this, but many have developed lovely gift shops and cafes, as you said, that help to support the building costs. There are even a few churches (like Santa Croce in Florence) that charge admission to everyone who is not attending worship.

Personally, I contribute something to each church I enter either through a contribution or a purchase. I'd rather pay a little than have the church fall into further disrepair.

Posted By Angela Nickerson on November 20, 2008, 9:00 PM

The cathedral in Christchurch, NZ has a shop attached to it. I seem to recall a cafe as well. Odd, but if they need to find alternative means to support themselves, I don't have a problem with it. Especially since some of these older cathedrals have historical and architectural significance.

Posted By Jenn on November 20, 2008, 9:10 PM

throw the moneychangers out of the temple!

Posted By LoAnn on November 21, 2008, 2:12 PM

I love this idea. Sharing fellowship has always been an important aspect of Christianity and I'm pretty sure it wouldn't bother the Big Guy a bit.

Posted By Linda HK on November 24, 2008, 12:07 PM

While I agree that it is not in good taste ... but OK if done right outside of main body, and if it can disrupt services then they need to close the shop during services. I do like what St. Martin-in-the-fields has done (see above)...

Posted By Alden on November 24, 2008, 12:11 PM

Anyone who has been to the Vatican knows there is a gift shop on the way down from the top of the dome. Imagine buying a shot glass from a nun, but we did!

Posted By Karen on November 24, 2008, 12:12 PM

no i do not think this is right. this is the same as the money changers when Jesus overturned the tables in the temple

Posted By alberta kibbie on November 24, 2008, 12:13 PM

Coffee and gift shops are a wonderful way to add revenue to support the inspirational experience of visiting churches, cathedrals and other religious sites. Maintenance and celebrations are expensive and in order to continue to offer them and maintain the heritage or the area and specific site, this is creative and a service enjoyed by visitors. I'm not sure about having them within the sanctuary or main area of worship but an adjacent room or building is what many churches and historical religious buildings and sites are doing worldwide.

Posted By jjohnson on November 24, 2008, 12:16 PM

We have a gift shop and a bakery @ our church. However; it is not inside the sanctuary.

Posted By Jessica on November 24, 2008, 12:17 PM

it's not about taxing people or religion,or making a buck on the back on that religion, it's about maintaining some beautiful architecture and history. i may be an atheist but i will always visit a cathedral or church purely for the man-made aspect of the building itself. i will even donate to restoration fees.

Posted By deby holmes on November 24, 2008, 12:17 PM

I love nothing better than a good church gift shop. I visit churches everywhere I travel and am always thrilled if there is a gift shop carrying both religious and historical objects.

Posted By Mandy on November 24, 2008, 12:17 PM

The cathedrals I have visited in Europe are, in my opinion, like museums. In some countries, people pay taxes, part of which, go to the "religion of the country". I see nothing wrong with gift/coffee shops in parts of a cathedral, or charging a small admission. These great buildings need to be preserved and I don't think tourists would object.
(by the way, I don't think the comment of 'money changers' is applicable to this).

Posted By Dolores Husfeld on November 24, 2008, 12:19 PM

I find it very curious that there would even be a question around this area.
Our church of 3,000 (in the US) just installed a coffee shop/Christian bookstore. The shop is in a separate area of the building away from the worship center, so it in no way takes away from the worship experience. The church pays income taxes on the profits of the shop in what the tax code calls "unrelated business income". But the church doesn't really view this as an income generator, but rather as a service to the community and to visitors (there are no other coffee shops anywhere in the area).

So for me the bottom line is this: As long as a church doesn't receive any unfair tax advantages, shouldn't they be able to determine how they use their own building??

Posted By Ray H on November 24, 2008, 12:19 PM

We've always enjoyed cathedral shops and cafes. they make a pleasant break and can be informative if you don't have the time to take a tour or don't wish to disturb worshipers. Winchester especially stands out in my mind because it is close to, but separate from the cathedral itself - an enjoyable compromise and a real pleasure to visit. But for the past few years, I've noticed that the stock in the majority of cathedral shops appear to be purchased from the same vendor. I've always sought the shops out as a great source for items specific to that particular cathedral - close-up photos of their windows, sculptural motifs, local artwork and, most importantly, recordings by the home choir. Now, it seems that the same bland useless gifts are being stocked, with very little variation and the music is more difficult to find.

Posted By Jen on November 24, 2008, 12:21 PM

Some times when we're in foreign countries we'll attend a service even though we have no idea what's going on:) (Sacre Couer and Notre Dame in Paris, others in Argentina, Switzerland, Greece, Australia, Kyrgyzstan, etc.) It's a fun cultural experience. Also, we got engaged in the Chartres Cathedral in France (in the center of their famous labyrinth); so I'm all for helping preserve that ancient beauty/history in any way possible.

Posted By Casey on November 24, 2008, 12:22 PM

As others have said, placement is key but I will gladly contribute to maintain a beautiful church that I wish to visit the same as I would a museum. Sadly too many churches in Europe have become just that--museums. Notable exceptions in my visits have been St. Martin-in-the-Field as Mary mentioned and York Minster.

Posted By Renee on November 24, 2008, 12:22 PM

What is the big deal.
The churches have not done well in the past few years. If they can find a way to make a some small profit good. When you look at the art inside of the church its worth it.
Plus in Europe they have concerts in the Cathedrals.
It's Beautiful.
Go For It

Posted By Kathleen Roach on November 24, 2008, 12:30 PM

At Matthew 21:12, 13 Jesus could not help but be incensed at the gross commercialization of the worship of his Father. With great fervor,he begins throwing out those buying and selling in the temple. Then he overturns the tables of the greedy money changers and the benches of those selling doves. “It is written,” Jesus exclaims, “‘My house will be called a house of prayer,’ but you are making it a cave of robbers.”

Maybe the churches should pay attention to what is written in the bible and re-think their practice.

Posted By Lauralee on November 24, 2008, 12:30 PM

Canterbury Cathedral in Canterbury, England has had a gift shop for years. It is not in the cathedral itself, but just outside on the street. I love shopping there and find nothing wrong with it.

Posted By Brenda Garrity on November 24, 2008, 12:32 PM

THEY GOT IT CORRECT A LONG TIME AGO! Over the past twenty years I have been to almost all the greatest cathedrals & churches in the U.K. and Europe and found that there was usually a souvenir shop and or some kind of refreshment facility adjacent or very close, to accommodate the parishioners and tourists.

Posted By ED INFANTE on November 24, 2008, 12:36 PM

I go to a church that has a coffee bar.It warms up people and conversations

Posted By Dianne Stevens on November 24, 2008, 12:37 PM

I don't know what the taxing structures are in Europe for religious organizations, but in the USA they are EXEMPT from paying taxes. Retail coffee shops and gift shops are NOT exempt from collecting and paying sales taxes. This presents an unfair advantage to the religious organization and can take customers from the other retail sales businesses. I am opposed to any further tax benefit for religious organizations. They are already exempt from property taxes and if you will take a look, not only are the buildings often found in downtown areas, they occupy the choicest locations all tax free. Religious organizations should not be in retail businesses or service businesses for anything other than providing required religious services to their members.

Posted By MLHARRISFL on November 24, 2008, 12:40 PM

I think it's a wonderful way to raise much needed funds. Those old buildings are very difficult to maintain. England has done a very good job of using these spaces. Someone else mentioned the wonderful Cafe in the Crypt at St. Martin-in-the-Fields (and shop and gallery and brass rubbing centre, too). Little-visited St. Etheldreda's in Ely Place also has a lovely cafe, and it brings people (particularly City workers) into a space that would otherwise not often be visited. I also remember shopping at a sweet charity shop in Shrewsbury Cathedral. I find myself inclined to prefer a church run shop or eatery to a commercial one, much in the way that I like to patronize museum shops and cafes. Tourists do create wear and tear on the spaces, so I think these enterprises are fair.

Posted By Annabella G. on November 24, 2008, 12:57 PM

Some churches see themselves as museums and if the public shares that image, I suppose appropriate marketing for survival is appropriate. But if a church sees itself as a prophetic voice in the world then these practices ought not to replace normal eleemosynary sources of income.

Posted By Ray on November 24, 2008, 12:58 PM

There are a lot of churches in the UK doing this.

In fact, last year I attended a gala dinner in a big cathedral near birmingham. They moved the pews to the side to make room for dinner tables and reception area. Wine and champagne flowed freely. My colleague and I were wondering whether it is appropriate to have alcohol in the place, but may be they think communion uses wine anyway.

I also went to a church near Manchester a couple of years back. The church had just spent millions to make the church into a real tourist experience, complete with IMAX movie (it's about the building of the cathedral 70 years ago.), the interactive choral experience where you climb up to the place right in the middle of the cathedral (supposedly for the choirs) and can put on a headphone and imagine yourself being in the middle of the choir practice. They also built elaborated coffee shop (with deli food) and gift shop right next to the pews. Very interesting.

I think they take that to the extreme and didn't like it. I do understand the need for them to survive though...

Posted By may on November 24, 2008, 1:01 PM

The profits from the coffee bars and restaurants in churches should go to the mothers ot the children born because of birth control restrictions the churches support.

Posted By David on November 24, 2008, 1:13 PM

Let's make it unanimous -- what is the big deal? There are many churches in the US that have bookstores & coffee shops in the church. (I don't know of any in the sanctuary.) The coffee shops & bookstores pay full taxes, so what a good source of revenue for you big government-lovers! The European churches are very expensive to maintain, and examples of great architecture, (and history!)
So this is a great way to help with maintainence!
Anything that has anything to do with Christianity is becoming targeted for suppression. I vote for freedom of commerce and expression!

Posted By Barb Smith on November 24, 2008, 1:13 PM

Sure, after you tithe why shouldn't a church take even more of your money, tax exempt. After all, it cost a lot to keep those edifices up. The poor have enough. It is time to spend more on church infrastructure.

The taxpayers don't do their share; I mean come on, as taxpayers can't we do more than just free roads, police and fire.

Posted By HideawayHound on November 24, 2008, 1:14 PM

The moneychangers at the temple were lining their own pockets, not supporting their place of worship. A cafe that helps supplement the church's maintenance budget, is a fund raiser just like a bake sale or a car wash or whatever else churches do to raise funds these days. Our church has a cafe and all proceeds support our mission program. We have literally sent a dozen people on mission trips on money that came from the cafe. I believe that God is proud of what we are doing in His name.

Posted By Cathy on November 24, 2008, 1:19 PM

Gift and coffee shops within churches in the US do indeed charge sales tax which they then must remit to the appropriate government bodies. I recently purchased some gift items at our church book/gift store and paid 7.93% taxes on the purchase. Most of the items I bought were made by our mission partners in Africa and the proceeds go to support a mission for AIDS orphans. We may also buy study bibles and other materials needed for classes, books on religious themes that may be harder to find in conventional bookstores, and other items that aren't usually carried by mainline retailers. I can't imagine that Jesus would have much objection to any of these sales. Nobody is being robbed or cheated and the profits support worthy causes.
The originial question, of course, concerned the churches in Europe. In addition to preserving the buildings, they must also pay utilities. If tourists who are not supporting the church in any other way will buy a few postcards or other items, that will compensate for the expenses of being open to the public. On one visit to Notre Dame, I was able to buy a lovely rosary for my granddaughter's upcoming baptism and I found very nice rosaries at the Vatican for my grandsons' first communion. My hope was that these would be treasures for them in addition to their religious significance. No religious service was interrupted to make these purchases. I can't see any wrong it it.

Posted By Marilyn Long on November 24, 2008, 1:21 PM

Our church has a coffee kiosk that is great. You get your fix right before church and it keeps you going as the service progresses. I love it.

Posted By Robi on November 24, 2008, 1:22 PM

Tourists (and I speak as one) love churches, but they are costly to maintain and congregations are shrinking everywhere. I would prefer churches put their money into social programs, anyway, so I don't object at all to gift shops and cafes in churches (one of the best sandwiches I ever had was in the crypt at St. Martin's in the Fields). I hadn't thought about the tax situation until I read some of the posts here, but if the churches aren't paying taxes to the local authorities, then they should. People expect sales tax or VAT to be added to their purchases, and the church building benefits from local municipal services, such as sewers, street sweeping, etc. Render unto Caesar that which is Caesar's.

Posted By Diana B on November 24, 2008, 1:23 PM

For those of you using the analogy of Jesus clearing the money changers out of the Temple, your analogy is incorrect. The moneychangers then were gouging people with usurious exchange rates and forcing everyone who came to the Temple to use "their" money to pay for offerings and sacrifices. Although I haven't checked into it all over the world, I'm fairly sure that no church or cathedral is making them use a "Church currency" that they have to buy and use there at exorbitant rates. I know how difficult it is to maintain older buildings--the heating alone is ruinous--so they've come up with a creative way to raise the necessary money. As long as it doesn't interfere with services, I think it's a great idea. Who doesn't love their coffee?

Posted By Christie on November 24, 2008, 1:23 PM

If it is free it's ok. Charge no.

Posted By Howard on November 24, 2008, 1:27 PM

I can see why that Gift shops etc. are a necessary evil in a church setting to help with the upkeep. A few years ago I visited a church in Coventry ,UK. a sign inside read" The upkeep for this building totals 2.5 lbs per minute". It's a choice one needs to make to while visiting these historic places, there's always a cost involved. If someone objects to a gift or coffee shop in a church, perhaps they need to stay at home and retreat from the real world..

Posted By Tom Duncan on November 24, 2008, 1:27 PM

Fine to have gift shops and cafes attached to churches. OK to charge a fee to enter a church museum. Restorations are expensive.
May they never go the way of companies who demand huge bailouts of taxpayers' money.

Posted By Vanni on November 24, 2008, 1:40 PM

The money changers in the temple mentioned in the Bible were raising money for themselves, having a cafe or gift shop helps to support the church's expenses. Churches pay electric bills, water bills, etc. and need to raise money somewhere. So many people grumble when a church asks for money in their services, sell goods and do what they can to raise funds to keep the services going, and complain yet again when a church has to close it's doors for a few hours a week in order to conserve costs. Sad. People are looking for ways to complain. Sounds a lot like the Pharisees looking for something to point their finger at in order to build their own self confidence that is lacking due to a guilty conscience.

Posted By rev casey on November 24, 2008, 1:41 PM

the comments about the robbers and money changers is taken so out of context it hurts! In that case, priests were selling items required to worship and at exorbitant prices. Plus ... at that time, churches/temples were not 501c3 corporations (aka businesses protected by the government) they were part of the government or funded by wealthy governors that ran the religion and the state!!! Hence ... in modern times we separated church and government leaving churches in a position to come up with funding to support themselves which led to the non-profit status 501c3 which is in fact a business structure.

Let's face it. Every church is a business. It has residence and utility overhead, staff wages, insurance bills, cleaning and maintenance and essential supplies and materials at the very least to pay for constantly. is it not better for the church to be self supporting rather than to depend on the erratic generosity of people according to how much begging and pleading and poor-pitiful-us messages assaulting every exposed visitor?

It's really nice to have cafes where like-minded people can gather and chat on the premises rather than spending that money at a high priced profiteers cafe somewhere else ... and to have a store on hand where message tapes, cards, books of the philosophy, and gift items can be purchased thereby supporting your chosen church instead of again, spending that money elsewhere and your church falling apart or closing due to lack of funding ...

NO ONE IS CHARGING ANYONE TO WORSHIP IN THESE CATHEDRALS, CHURCHES OR TEMPLES!!

Posted By stanlee on November 24, 2008, 1:42 PM

We are such a selfish population that the churches have to go to such measures to fix up what society should take care of SHAME ON ALL OF US

Posted By Kylee on November 24, 2008, 1:46 PM

I don't think it's a problem to have the amenities on-site if it is to maintain the churches and/or to support their missions. I personally would take issue, however, if they were to lease the space to someone like Starbucks, for example - that I would see as selling out.
Kind of related, in a shopping mall near where I live there is a coffee shop run by an order of nuns (and they work in it -- habits and all!) to raise money for their work; it's usually very busy and the coffee and pastries are fantastic.

Posted By Suzanne on November 24, 2008, 1:48 PM

Having a coffee and gift shop in a church is nothing new. When the church was the center of the community, all trade and bartering was done in and around the church each Sunday before and after worship. That provided not only support for the church, the community and also the socialization of the community; which we could are in need of in the present day. What goes around, comes around.

Posted By David on November 24, 2008, 2:00 PM

Personally, the gifts we bought at the gift shop at Notre-Dame de la Garde, in Marseille, were some of the most cherished by our friends. It was an amazingly beautiful place and I was happy to spend a little money for nice souvenirs that would help to ensure the well-being of the structure. It also afforded a chance to interact with some of the nuns, whom I encountered no where else on site.
I think, if it is done tastefully, there is no harm. Moving aside pews to install a coffee shop may be crossing the line a bit, though.

Posted By Dana on November 24, 2008, 2:07 PM

The Europeans can do whatever they want. Selling coffee, tea, cookies, or whatever is a business. If religious institutions want to engage in business, that's fine, but they should be taxed, just like any other business.

Posted By Alexander Lewin on November 24, 2008, 2:28 PM

Take it one step farther, how about opening a cocktail lounge instead? Wine/Beer warms up people and conversations also....I think it is quite an eye-opener to see that the majority of the population is okay with whatever in what was meant from the start to be the most holy place on earth. If a church professes to be a Christian Institution and therefore Christ's Church or Christ's Home isn't it obligatory out of respect to fashion that church according to Christ's wishes that his church be called "a house of prayer," not "a den of thieves"????? In this "anything goes" culture we now live in, it may be important at some point to value and protect a few traditions.

Posted By Jeanne on November 24, 2008, 2:33 PM

The Cathedral Basilica of St. Louis, MO, USA has a gift shoppe to help defray the costs of maintaining its wonderful building and mosaics. Admission to the church is free but the shop gives the diocese a chance to capture some tourist dollars. Might even help pay for the wear-and-tear we cause.

European cathedrals are even more impressive and certainly need funds for maintenance. You don't have to buy anything if you don't want to. I certainly don't want to see tax money given to churches.

But here's a hint. If you ever go to Colmar, France do not pay to see the Triptych. It's not worth it. There are nicer, free churches to explore.

Posted By Jim Dexter on November 24, 2008, 2:36 PM

some narrow minds dictated by narrow religions posted here.

Scary.

Posted By Linda Quon on November 24, 2008, 3:05 PM

I think in Europe the line is pretty blurred between church and museum. In Russia years ago they officially made cathedrals and churches museums, under Communism they pushed atheism, of course, but even in other parts of Europe at many times churches have had state support and/or served other (social/humanitarian) functions.
The real question is, does it serve as a house of worship, with a 'real' church (supported by the local body of believers, not just tourists) or is it more of an attraction from a cultural or historic standpoint? If it is the latter, and decommissioned, there is no harm. Sadly, countries like France and England have been 'post-Christian' or nominally Christian (Italy) for many years. Mainline Protestant and Catholic churches have seen membership fade over the last thirty years.
Let's not confuse the two - a real church is where the body is alive and demonstrates love for one neighbor - it is not a chapel or building, but people who are working together to draw closer to God and bear witness to others of Christ's love.

Posted By T. Ferro on November 24, 2008, 3:18 PM

I commented on this in my travel blog (stravaiginaboot.blogspot.com). We went to St. Etheldreda's in Ely Place, and it was an interesting contrast. The church is lovely and has an ancient feel to it, and the cafe was warm and bustling. I think that it is nice if people come for a meal or a break and end up in a pew, perhaps contemplating or seeking.

I am less thrilled with the thought of anyone actually moving pews. There has to be a better way.

Posted By Bob on November 24, 2008, 3:48 PM

Remember, Jesus threw the money changers out of the temple.

Posted By Rhonda on November 24, 2008, 4:10 PM

Why not? Seems to be a plus for both the church and the tourist/visitor. The church profits for its needs, the tourist gets a respite from touring along with the possibility of meeting fellow travelers in a relaxed atmosphere.

Posted By Robert Penny on November 24, 2008, 4:12 PM

Hello this is the first time I have ever posted anything but I feel very strongly about this issue. I have traveled all over Europe and Britain and I am amazed at the beauty, the size and the age of the churches. I am also amazed at the cost of the upkeep and ongoing restoration costs that the churches have. I feel very blessed that I have been able to view something that people worked to build, some over a hundred years. My hope is that my nieces and their children will also have the opportunity to view something built out of amazing faith and sacrifice. I know it is hard to see the commercialization that is occurring but that is the reality of our day. I would rather the churches not charge an entrance fee and have a gift shop or a coffee shop. Who knows how many people’s hearts have been touched by the beauty that was created in glorification of God and because of this have asked him to be part of their life? If there had been an entrance fee how many would have walked away?

Posted By Holly on November 24, 2008, 4:17 PM

As for European churches offering coffee shops, gift shops, bookstores or whatever, I vote YES. They should do whatever they can to keep these wonderful historical churches open to the public. Besides, our experience has been that the coffee and snacks are less expensive (St. Martin's In The Fields, London), and many visitors wish to take away books or post cards of the cathedral or church as a good memory of the visit. Yes, Yes, Yes.
Jan and Lee Kline

Posted By Lee Kline on November 24, 2008, 5:02 PM

I was at Wells Cathedral a few weeks ago and they have a gift shop and cafeteria where I was a little surprised to buy a Ginger Beer (5% alcohol) along with a splendid 'Plowmans Lunch.' BTW the voluntary donation to enter was rather vigorously pursued by some sweet old ladies but there was nothing voluntary about the 5# for the right to take photos. No fiver, no pic's.

Posted By Clarance on November 24, 2008, 5:33 PM

I am all for it. These beautiful historic places are full of masterpieces that must to be maintained just like the ones kept in any museum. Churches have electrical, heating and water bills just like museums, they have to be kept clean and they have to pay people to do that. Unlike museums, most churches don't charge an entrance fees to tourists. How are they going to survive? They need to get these funds somehow. In my opinion is a great way to offer a tired visitor a place to rest for a minute.
I have visited many churches in Europe, Canada, North and South America and I have personally not seen pews taken out to make space for a cafe. I think however that there are ways to incorporate both in a way that would not offend anyone.

Posted By Adita on November 24, 2008, 5:39 PM

Many Catholic and Orthodox churches already have coffee socials after Divine Liturgy. However, they're held in areas away from the sanctuaries and main bodies of the church. They do very little to raise money, but rather are useful as socials, to let the parishioners spend a bit of time together as a community before returning to their homes and businesses. Non-members of the parish are also welcome visitors at these coffee socials, without their having to listen to formal invites to join the church. As money-makers, coffees are a waste of time. As informal times of fellowship and welcome, they're priceless.

Posted By Daniel J. Vandeberg on November 24, 2008, 5:53 PM

Mark 11:15-17 There [Jesus]entered into the temple and started to throw out those selling and buying in the temple, and he overturned the tables of the money changers and the benches of those selling doves; and he would not let anyone carry a utensil through the temple, but he kept teaching and saying: “Is it not written, ‘My house will be called a house of prayer for all the nations’? But YOU have made it a cave of robbers.”

Posted By Ma Ruxue on November 24, 2008, 6:08 PM

In Europe thats fine. But If they do it here ,in USA, Then let them pay taxes like any other business. They are a business. The deal in war torture and human suffering big time

Posted By richard holland on November 24, 2008, 6:29 PM

I have been lucky enough to visit a number of cathedrals in Germany and Austria in the past three years, and almost all have some sort of gift shop associated with them, although usually as an outside facility. I haven't seen any coffee shops inside any of the churches. Some, like the Cologne Cathedral, have treasuries or museums which do charge for admission but given the expense of the security measures necessary that strikes me as reasonable. Given the ages of some of these buildings the upkeep must be astronomical, so I see no problem with the facilities having coffee and gift shops to be able to open these beautiful and historic buildings to the public, as long as the shops do not interfere with the religious purpose of the church.

Posted By John H. Voigtsberger on November 24, 2008, 6:47 PM

After seeing some beautiful Cathedrals in Spain recently,I'm for the giftshop, but not a cafe shop.
Working in the Maintenance department in a big church myself,in my area in Omaha, Nebraska, I can tell you that it is a lot of work for us to maintain, especially coffee spills that stain if not cleaned up right away.Something to think about.
Deb Kitkowski.

Posted By Debbie Kitkowski on November 24, 2008, 7:27 PM

I think this is a great idea, as long as they do it from property that is on the real estate tax rolls and take out all of the applicable permits and licenses that apply to comparable businesses in the private sector, pay minimum wage, deduct FICA, etc. and collect sales taxes like any other coffee shop, daycare operator, health club, private school, restaurant, etc.

Posted By Doug McDowall on November 24, 2008, 7:36 PM

First as a Navy brat, then as an Army wife, and lately as a Dept of Defense civilian, I have spent four tours totaling 11 years in Germany and Denmark. Everywhere I lived and traveled, there were beautiful old churches open for anyone to enjoy, to spend a few moments in contemplation, or to remain for services. If buying a cup of coffee, a sandwich, book or postcard will help to maintain these wonderful buildings for future generations, I'm happy to do so. I also have no objection to paying an entry fee. Why should the local parish be left with the bills for something that has given so many outsiders so much pleasure?

Posted By Sheila on November 24, 2008, 8:10 PM

When in London in early Sept. we toured St.Paul's and had a good look at the gift shop/restaurant.
We did not have occasion to stop but think it is a good thing to have available; if we want to take a few moments off from walking and have a coffee and/or a sandwich, why are we better served by walking outside and finding a place?
And how much would an outside establishment contribute to the church's necessary upkeep?
Dean M.
Miami Florida

Posted By Dean M. on November 24, 2008, 8:12 PM

I don't see what all the fuss is about. Who cares what we think - we are not members at these churches or cathedrals. They have made the decision. Who are we to tell them it matters whether or not they move chairs (as many european churches have) or pews? Who are we to interfere and tell them they shouldn't raise funds this way? What does it matter to us what the tax policy of european governments is regarding religious organizations?

I, like others who have posted, will not stop visiting churches or cathedrals that have such facilities. I have been to many churches, abbeys, and cathedrals in the UK and Europe. I have had wonderful meals at St. Martin-in-the-Field, purchased CDs of the wonderful choirs at St. Paul's Cathedral and Westminster Abbey, attended Evensong at St. Paul's, sat though noon prayers at a church in Gorlitz, Germany - understanding none of the language - but entranced by the organ music during this brief service, and enjoyed an organ recital at a church in Prague during their Prague Spring International Music Festival. I don't mind supporting the restoration of these beautiful, historical buildings.

Their history is blended with their religious edifices. There aren't many in our country which are blended with US history. I would have no problem being a visitor/patron at a historical church in the US to support their restoration or upkeep.

Those who take issue with supporting a church in this manner are free to not visit and spend their travel money elsewhere.

Posted By Kate on November 24, 2008, 8:46 PM

Absoutely yes. It's economically sound and gives church going-counsumers an opportunity to have a cup of coffee or obtain goods they might go elsewhere to purchase. Our congregation has about 10,000 members and often members and guest are hungry after receiving the food which feeds their spirit. Many prefer shopping in a giftshop or eating in a cafe; in an atmosphere which the customer service is efficient,warm and honest. Personally, I will continue to support my Church's effort to provide goods and services which benefit God's economy and convenant for my needs too!
My best to the vision of Dr. R.M.Gordon, Pastor of St. Matthews Baptist Church, Williamstown, New Jersey.

Posted By Lyn on November 24, 2008, 9:04 PM

I am glad to see that most of the comments above are sensible and understanding. These are probably from people who have actually been to Europe and have seen for themselves the architectural beauty of the old churches and cathedrals, some a thousand years old (Westminster Abbey for example). Those religious fanatics who are quoting the Bible about money-lenders, etc, don't know what they are talking about. You are comparing apples with oranges. Churches in the US are, in the first place, well-attended, and get their money from their members' donations (I believe these are called tithes?) Secondly, most churches are modern, built in the late 20th century and are often as not torn down when the neighborhood changes (there are many examples of this here in Memphis TN; churches torn down and a Walgreen's built instead). The construction is cheap sheetrock, not hand-carved stone. And thirdly, churches here are not usually open all day long for visitors to tour. Compare this with Europe, and add to the factors stated above the fact that very few Europeans go to church any more, in other words, churches no longer HAVE a big membership. So what are the great cathedrals to do? Just crumble away and fall into ruin? Obviously not. So I think it's fine for them to raise money any way they can. I'm pretty sure that they're not selling coffee or whatever in a way or place that would conflict with the celebration of a religious service.

Posted By Julie on November 24, 2008, 10:22 PM

I look forward to a gift shop - Typically the person working there knows a lot of history about the church and the surroundings. I like to purchase post cards of the church - typically a better shot than I can take with a camera. If I can collect a charm with the church on it - that's a plus. Leaving a donation for seeing the inside of the church is nice thing to do!

Posted By Julie on November 24, 2008, 10:26 PM

I hate to see churches become strip malls, but if its parishoners are not keeping the coffers full, then they must find ways to survive. My only concern would be what kind of clientel are we bringing in. Just last weekend I had to escort a local drunk out of the church during a service. he was looking for free coffee and a $$$$ handout, probably to buy a bottle of something to spice up the coffee.

Dave Reeves

Posted By David Reeves on November 24, 2008, 10:28 PM

At first blush, I was horrified to see this. But when I think back to the beautiful churches all over Europe that I have seen as a tourist, I can understand it. In fact, it's not a bad idea. Many times as a tourist I was hungry and thirsty while traveling. I would welcome the opportunity to support the church rather than spend money on food and drink at some overpriced restaurant. I also wish I could have taken home a small memento from the historic churches, to add to my memories and pictures. I do NOT believe the cafe/shops should be open around Mass or service times. THat would be very tacky and disrespectful.

In the US we have far fewer churches of historical signifigance. You would not expect to see a cafe in church! Therefore I was APALLED when I recently attended a service in my brother's "new wave" church in Upstate NY, out of respect for him. They had a coffee bar in the vestibule and people were loudly standing around socializing while inside the service was going on! Then they walked inside with their coffee cups, drinking all during the service! I am usually pretty open minded but it seemed so inappropriate to me. It was like social hour in the vestibule, with people walking in and out of the service for refills etc. I found it totally tasteless. This is not a poor church trying to raise money; they tithe big bucks and it's in a wealthy suburb. Further, they have plenty of money for their huge video screens and over the top audio systems. Since when did going to church become a social and entertainment hour? This is where I think coffee shops have no place in a church.

I love historical churches; the older the better! And I would support them any way i can, be it a small fee, donation, or shop.

Posted By Mary on November 24, 2008, 11:24 PM

I visited the church in Sicily where my great grandparents were born. They had a simple small gift shop with booklets on the history of the church, rosaries, and other religious items. I was happy to support the beautiful old church in this way, in addition to a donation to the plate. It was far more meaningful to me than anything I would get at a tourist shop and it supported the church, which was important to me.

Posted By Corie on November 24, 2008, 11:36 PM

I've never been to Europe, but when I visited Japan I made a point of throwing some change in the offering when I visited Temples and Shrines, and I bought a fortune telling. If they had been selling post cards or picture books I would have bought them.

I pay admission to museums and observation decks, I don't see why I should expect the followers of these religions to subsidize my tourist activities.

Posted By Eric Wright on November 24, 2008, 11:41 PM

In our country, there is a difference between a non-profit business and a for-profit business. Churches have been given a status that exempts them from taxes. If the church is going to get into business, that church should lose their non-profit status and pay government taxes just like all other businesses must do. The church that conducts business for profit (even the profit of the church) should no longer be exempt.

Posted By Betty on November 24, 2008, 11:41 PM

This is a similar act Jesus condemned when people made the place of worship into an investment, business. What would Jesus think if he sees that today? Would he accept that? You know what the answer is: NO ! Then why are you making up reasons to cover up for that act?

Posted By Lily on November 25, 2008, 1:28 AM

We just visited Florence, and I was horrified to find you couldn't go in to many churches just to say a prayer --without either paying 6 euros at the door, or convincing a guard that you were going in to pray. Coffee and gift shops would be much more tasteful, and in keeping with the intention of the hundreds of craftsmen and artists who laboured to build these houses of worship.

Posted By Catherine Richards on November 25, 2008, 5:43 AM

Being European and living in Europe I see no problem at all in making money to keep the historic buildings maintained. The churches are not making money from the Congregation. I can see a fifteenth century church from my window. It only has a service once a month as there are not enough people to warrant employing a full time Priest. The Worshippers go to whatever town is having a service that week. I see them arrive when it is the turn of this town I would say that the youngest person in the handful of people is about 60. This church is not making enough to cover the cost of heating from the few cents that these faithful are able to put in the offering box each month. The big Churches and Cathedrals are all in the same position. If we are to keep the Architectural wonders that some of these places are the Churches have to do something.

As for moving pews. What difference does it make they are a Victorian addition anyway before that people stood to worship. If no-one is sitting in them why keep them? It isn't as if anyone would have to stand there are plenty seats for the few worshippers who turn up.

It is all very well for Americans who have never left America to criticise but Religions like the Church of England do not tithe. These buildings are part of our European heritage and have to be preserved just as we preserve Castles and other ancient buildings.

Posted By Kris on November 25, 2008, 7:01 AM

Moslem mosques essentially have been doing this since at least the 1200s. They provided soup kitchens, hospitals, shops lined one wall of the building. Usually church gift shops provide quality items compared to the nearby vendors.
Churches are a social center for many who have little other group support. Nat'l Cathedral in Wash will not be happy w/o their shop, believe me!

Posted By kabar on November 25, 2008, 9:42 AM

Unfortunately, with the necessity of keeping an old and historic edifice safe and comfortable for it's congregants, extraordinary measures need to be taken. When people who are not contributing as congregants want to visit and leave their wear and tear on a facility they should gladly contribute to the upkeep. They pay to visit museums, visiting the bookstore there, and, in reality, churches are museums, showing history of a religion.

If the church is open without cost to the public, put a few coins or a bill in the contribution box. Or the church may not be open the next time you may want to visit it.

Posted By Evan Jackson on November 25, 2008, 11:37 AM

The congregations in many of these cathedrals have dropped off drastically over the years. Loss of congregation equals loss of income. They were forced to find another way to bring income into the church to help preserve the church and continue their mission. Many churches have provided for voluntary donations, however, in my experience of watching tourist enter these places, I have seen few feel a need to leave a donation. The other answer, the gift shop. Now, maybe that is still not enough. These beautiful cathedrals are already many hundreds of years old and the older they get the more it cost to maintain them. This is a harmless way of making up for dwindling congregations or as additional support badly needed by these cathedrals. I consider it a privilege to be able to view and enjoy the wonderful works of art in these cathedrals as well as the cathedrals themselves, so I gladly donate with the purchase of postcards and/or just a few coins in the little box by the door. I want to continue to see these places when I visit Europe and other places.

Posted By Devra on November 25, 2008, 1:02 PM

churches and ministers of God's Word should sell NOTHING ...scripture states that THE GOSPEL IS FREE

Posted By Robert Wright on November 25, 2008, 1:14 PM

OOh for heavens sake! Churches have been selling
things on the front steps for centuries. Gift shops are very much a part of churches in Mexico and Spain...The National Cathedral in DC has a lovely shop with gifts, etc. and herbs from their
garden. A church related shop gives the buyer an
opportunity to find something unique and sweet and
gentle for their loved ones. Now, the coffee at my church is free, as well as the pastries, but maybe a true coffee shop would help bring revenue
to our hard pressed churches of all denominations.
Some decent espresso might be quite nice. Let's go for it! Anne

Posted By Anne E. Hock on November 25, 2008, 4:53 PM

I'm Daniel J. Gansle, author of the book, Your World, Your Future, & Bible Prophecy. I'm not sure about European churches, but America's mass-produced megachurches have been including coffee, book, and gift shops in churches for quite some time now. While it is convenient, I have one question: Isn't THIS the VERY SAME THING Jesus turned the tables adjacent to the Temple for? Then He said, "You're turning my Father's house into a den of thieves?" Commercialism and Christianity don't mix; because at its ends, the church will simply become a business like any other rather than its true intention, the worship of our Holy God. Let's think long and hard about that one...

Posted By Daniel J. Gansle on November 25, 2008, 5:59 PM

I feel sorry for my "legalistic" friends who cannot accept the TRUE explanations which were given!
God must feel so sad at times to see/hear some of His children so forcefully "misjudging" others. Did He not say, judge not! He even went further and said only the Father in Heaven was to judge! Let the churches survive!

Posted By Wanda Grace on November 25, 2008, 6:52 PM

Ok, first, I think that if done tastefully and out of respect for worshipers and the overall "feel" of the building, then this is a great way to share the story of the building and share the cost of maintaining it.

Second, those of you who are comparing this practice to the "money-changers in the Temple" (and anyone else interested in whether this truly speaks to this at all) read more than one Bible (i.e. the NIV and the NKJV or RSV) AND read UP several verses and then all the way down. Jesus is referring to the practice of the actual money-changers that exchanged the varying types of currency that the Jewish pilgrims brought with them to purchase their sacrifices. Historically, the "exchange rate" was not fairly calculated. The pilgrims had the option of bringing their own, perfect unblemished animal for the burnt offering or buying one from the sellers in the Temple square (who only took one type of currency)... The faithful where preyed upon by not only those exchanging the money and those selling the animals, but the Temple Priests who tolerated the unfair treatment of those simply wishing to offer a sacrifice as required in Judaic law.

Posted By Mary on November 26, 2008, 1:32 AM

I think it is a good idea for some churches to have a gift shop & a coffee shop. There are a few churses that have a book store selling books & related items so add a few more items to their inventory.

Elaine Kuppens

Posted By Elaine on November 27, 2008, 2:56 AM

Our church opened a coffee shop recently and all of the profit goes to support orphanages and missionaries abroad and also our local missions. We close it during the worship services and it is open on weekend nights for people and teens to come and have a place to fellowship. I think it is sad that places of worship in Europe are now museums. I pray that they will one day again be places of worship to our Creator and Redeemer and you can go there for free and for freedom from this crazy world we live in. God bless you all.

Posted By Regina on November 28, 2008, 9:48 AM

I have no objections if the church pays taxes, is open to the public, and the contributions are indeed contributions, i.e. given voluntarily.

After all, a certain religionist fed the masses. I would have no problem with a contribution freely given rather than a tax that is required. I would insist the revenues go to the maintaince of the church, catherdal, bascillica, or building rather than to perpetuate the religion. They are sunday offerings for the latter.

Posted By David Reno on November 28, 2008, 2:38 PM

Great Place to give money if they charge as much as Starbucks!

Posted By Mary on November 28, 2008, 3:58 PM

Taxes and churches are a concern. My only concern is if my church made a profit we should pay taxes. If it wasn't for missions that we support we would close the gap between our operating cost, yes we pay full fare for gas, oil, water, we deduct all necessary wage taxes from our employees and we don't make a profit. There have been a few comments about St. Martin in the Fields in London. This is a Free church. St. Pauls and Westminster you must pay to see inside. St. Martins also has a "it cost so much per minute" and they ask for a donation. Their crypt is wonderful. During the summer they had a flee market, their soup was wonderful on a chilly day. Their gift shop has a wide variety of items suitable for all. If these things are what it takes to support the operation of a church, go for it.

Posted By Lloyd B on November 28, 2008, 9:00 PM

Personally, what i really hate are those machines for "old coins" and pictures of saints and things like this. This should not be the part of the church. When I was in Notre Dame in Paris, couple of years ago, There were these machines inside the chaple and sanctuary and everywhere. If someone really needs to have these machines, could it be at least outside the church?

Posted By Petra on December 3, 2008, 7:55 AM

I don't really see what the big fuss is about. The Catholic Church is one of the wealthiest conglomorate in the world. I will admit that I am not a religious person BUT... I have profound respect for others who are religious. That being said... churches are my favorite places to visit when I'm overseas. They are filled with such history and so many hidden treasures.

I just visited the Duomo in Siena, Italy. It has beautifully artistic floors that we tourists walk all over. Step by step we innocently destroy it with our curiousity to see what is inside this magnificent church. They do charge a few Euro to enter but the restoration and upkeep of these churches we all want to see is expensive and a lot of times a very slow painstaking process. I watched with fascination as 2 women laid on their backs and slowly cleaned the Piccolomini Altar (sculptures by Michelangelo). One steaming the other slowly and methodically brushing debris away. I don't imagine the restoration of a Michelangelo sculpture is cheap. I am grateful that they have the funding to restore such precious works of art so that future travellers can be as amazed as I was by this splendid place. So I guess what I'm saying is that if they need to sell coffee to keep it standing... GO FOR IT!!!

Posted By sarah on December 4, 2008, 5:12 PM

Those folks who quote the Bible (incorrectly and out of context, I must add) may be the same ones who would never agree to a tax to preserve a great monument such as Notre Dame or Chartres or St. Paul's. The daily traffic to these wonderful monuments to the human spirit is tremendous and surely takes a heavy toll in wear and tear. My suggestion to those who rail on about the money changers is that they visit Europe and stand in line to enter Notre Dame in Paris and see for themselves. On second thought, please stay home. We get enough of you here. My wife and I are going to Paris next week and will enjoy it as always. We have never seen a money changer in a cathedral yet, but we'll keep our eyes open!

Posted By Lee on December 5, 2008, 10:02 AM

As far as I can see, Organized Religion is the greatest single threat to peace and to my freedom on earth. I don't give them a dime and believe that they should be paying taxes just as any business does!

Rich

Posted By Rich in Tennessee on December 6, 2008, 9:16 PM

Hey, I love the idea of getting a mocha latte brewed with holy water and cream fresh from the live nativity scene outside the church doors. What a gimmick! Call it Jesus' Java Joint!

Posted By Liam Grey on December 9, 2008, 11:00 AM

The Church may be property-rich, but the local parishes always seem to be struggling for funds for repairs and community projects (like food shelters). As long as concessions are not interfering with access or church services, I don't see a problem with cafes or gift shops.

Alternatively, it might make more sense for the churches to sell licenses to people/companies interested in running those concessions. As part of any license agreement, the church could then collect a 'tithe' from the businesses.

Another way to raise some funds could be to sell annual memberships with a key tag or card to show at the door. The occasional visitor or guest would buy a "ticket" to attend services. Even a small $5/week fee would generate $260 for a single membership. Family memberships could be offered for $500 (kids free). The benefit of memberships is that the church will have collected funds from even those who rarely attend mass. Outside of the masses, the church could still be freely available for those who want to attend confession, quietly pray outside of mass, or light a candle in remembrance.

Posted By Evelyn on December 15, 2008, 6:04 PM